Legislature(2003 - 2004)
05/16/2003 02:05 PM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
CSHJR 22(RLS)-PATRIOT ACT AND DEFENDING CIVIL LIBERTIES
CHAIR RALPH SEEKINS called the Senate Judiciary Standing
Committee meeting to order at 2:05 p.m. Present were Senators
Ogan, Ellis and French. The first order of business to come
before the committee was HJR 22.
SENATOR ELLIS motioned to adopt SCS CSHJR 22(JUD), version Q.
There was no objection and it was so ordered.
MR. JOMO STEWART, Staff to Representative Guttenberg, said the
changes in the SCS are appropriate.
MS. RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative Coghill, said she
would answer questions.
MR. JOHN BRADY, Fairbanks resident, supported HJR 22. He said,
"The USA's Patriot Act creates a virtual police state with
little or no judicial oversight."
MR. FRANK TURNEY, Bill of Rights Defense Committee, supported
HJR 22. He thought the definition of a terrorist was really
broad in the Patriot Act.
MR. MIKE LAWLESS, Bill of Rights Defense Committee, supported
HJR 22 and thanked them for all the hard work they had done on
this resolution.
MR. LEE DESPAIN, Fairbanks resident, supported HJR 22.
SENATOR THERRIAULT arrived at 2:13 p.m.
MR. SCOTT TRAFFORD CALDER, Fairbanks resident, supported HJR 22.
He wanted to know if the words "reasonable suspicion" had
changed in version Q.
CHAIR SEEKINS replied reasonable suspicion and probable cause
essentially mean the same thing.
MR. CALDER said he objected to the use of reasonable suspicion,
but that this bill is only a resolution and it's better to get
something passed than nothing at all.
SENATOR FRENCH commented that reasonable suspicion is a lesser
standard than probable cause, but it is the standard that is
used before you stop a citizen who is walking down the street.
SENATOR OGAN said that Black's Law Dictionary defines reasonable
suspicion as:
Such suspicion, which will justify an officer, for
fourth amendment purposes, in stopping a defendant in
a public place, is quantum of knowledge sufficient to
induce ordinary prudent and cautious man under
circumstances that could lead to criminal activity...
He said that probable cause is a higher standard by 50 percent
or more and felt that reasonable suspicion was enough to
investigate an activity, but it's not enough to get search
warrants for wiretaps and those kinds of things.
SENATOR FRENCH said what he reads on page 2, lines 13 - 25, is
that they are resolving that in the absence of reasonable
suspicion or criminal activity under Alaska state law, no state
agency may begin an investigation. He asked whether they think
that state officers should be able to assist in perceived
violations under the same reasonable suspicion standard as
federal law or are they trying to avoid that.
CHAIR SEEKINS added that he thought that was a good point and
asked if we have state laws that cover the federal side of
things like kidnapping.
SENATOR FRENCH replied that you can always find some statute
that will cover a federal crime and vice versa.
MS. JENNIFER RUDINGER, Executive Director, Alaska Civil
Liberties Union (ACLU), thanked Representatives Guttenberg and
Coghill for the bi-partisan and tireless effort they put into
crafting this resolution. The ACLU supported the language that
came out of the House by a vote of 32 - 1. Reasonable suspicion
is the appropriate legal standard for initiating the
investigations and searches that are contemplated by HJR 22;
probable cause is the appropriate standard for obtaining a
warrant.
SENATOR OGAN asked if aliens are treated differently under the
Patriot Act than for other crimes since it looks as though it
allows them to be detained for six months without due process.
MS. RUDINGER replied that the Patriot Act takes many of the
types of searches and covert surveillance that used to apply to
agents of a foreign power and expands that to any kind of
investigation.
It's not whether it's a U.S. citizen or a non-citizen
and whether it's a routine criminal investigation or
an investigation related to terrorism. That's one of
the more troublesome aspects of the Patriot Act. It's
the breadth of power and the expansion of that
power...
With respect to non citizens and their detention, I
think a lot of that action came from executive orders,
but I want to find out more information specifically
on the length of those detentions as to whether that's
coming from the Patriot Act or other executive orders.
SENATOR OGAN said Section 213 of the Patriot Act has the
authority for delaying notice of execution of warrant and he
wasn't sure if reasonable cause was an appropriate standard.
MS. RUDINGER said that issue has been troubling a lot of
constitutional scholars, because although the Fourth Amendment
does say probable cause is necessary to obtain a warrant, U.S.
Supreme Court cases have lowered that standard in some
instances. Justice Scalia said that troubled him.
SENATOR FRENCH commented that Alaska law has not eroded, but he
couldn't speak to federal law.
CHAIR SEEKINS said the draft is too weak and ignores the
possibility of other federal laws that cause some of the same
problems.
MS. MOSS said this is the product of almost a week of
negotiations between Representatives Guttenberg and Coghill and
the intent is to encourage Congress to look at any measures that
infringe on our liberties.
SENATOR FRENCH said the language is aimed at the problem, which
is overreaching under the Patriot Act.
SENATOR ELLIS motioned to pass SCS CSHJR 22(JUD) from committee
with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal
note. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
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